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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 495 for the 15th of April

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2018 which had Saunders here with you

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from Sydney Australia

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bushfires fires around Sydney I can see

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the smoke out of the sceptic zone window

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it's a bushfire emergency right now

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we've had record-breaking temperatures

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this April today's a bit cooler

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ironically enough but there are worrying

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bushfires about but apart from the bush

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fires what's coming up on this week's

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show we're gonna start with Maynard

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spooky action Maynard was being

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particularly spooky yesterday in Sydney

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where he joined the March for science

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together with a gaggle of sceptics and a

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modest crowd I must admit this year

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anyway very interesting speakers and we

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marched through the streets of Sydney

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into Hyde Park marching for science

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interviews and some highlights from some

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of the talks and little snippets coming

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up with Maenads spooky action then a

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very nice and short message from the

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squaring the strange podcast Thank You

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Celestia for organizing that and they're

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celebrating one year of podcasting hey

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Ben and Pasquale only and Silesia only

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nine more years to go and you'll catch

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up to the sceptic zone good luck then we

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have something which is unusual for the

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skeptics own different I guess it's hard

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to say last week you will recall we

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brought you the story of the naturopath

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who's been sent to prison for at least

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seven months for her part in advising a

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mother to go on a raw diet which gravely

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affected her her son now the mother was

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breastfeeding at the time the son was

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very young a baby and this had very bad

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effects on the baby who lost a lot of

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weight and was only days away from death

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when his mother finally

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took the son to a GP and we told you

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that the naturopath Maryland bottner as

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we speak is already into her first week

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of her sentence at prison time well I'm

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going to read out the judges remarks in

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sentencing now these remarks are of

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public record of course and it was

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brought to my attention by our reporter

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Haley Robinson from the North Northern

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Rivers vaccination supporters and I read

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this determination or their remarks from

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the judge and I thought it was so

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interesting and so insightful that I'm

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reading it out to you today later on in

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the show you can see some of the the

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facts behind this case some of the

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thinking the judge would have had to or

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his thoughts and considering the the

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sentence that he ultimately imposed and

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again as I said last week this is a

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strong hopefully a strong message of

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warning to so-called natural therapists

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out there and apart from anything else I

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hope it gives you a window a look inside

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the New South Wales justice system well

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that's enough for me right now a short

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introduction this week I'm gonna run

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downstairs and have a peanut butter and

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honey sandwich peanut butter and honey

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sandwich I shouldn't eat so many peanut

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butter and honey sandwiches folks ah

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that they're so good will I do that I

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hope you enjoy the skeptic zone

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his main art spooky action at a distance

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hiya main out here it's the mass for

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science 2018 this is where we go and

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look at science we go wow what's that

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what's happening there who's that

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why is that and we'll be examining that

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Hall here in Martin Place in the Sydney

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well I'm just gonna have a wander around

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here to see what's going on okay here we

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go running running running running

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running honey another thing there is a

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person with a hat guy with a P hat

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person who's got a degree and a whole

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bunch of people here look there's people

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here have a rainbow thing going on

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waving now I have no credibility because

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obviously I didn't go university and I

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go back here and there's people thinking

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with coffee and he's a monument which

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actually represents the Barry Manilow

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release of I can't smile without you

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it's fantastic and I'm walking around

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here over here look science has solution

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is what's going on there there's a hat

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hat hat shorts a few things here so

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normally I could maybe sit here but

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unfortunately I never went to university

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you have to get up and one around

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excuse me may not hear from the sceptic

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zone I know some yeah okay I'm standing

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next to someone who actually knows what

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the table of elements means what are you

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studying at the moment occupational

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therapy okay now what's your favorite

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element my element is surprise what's

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yours

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gallium on one of the wacky ones exists

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for about three seconds in a NASA good

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carbon carbon she's a carbon fan thank

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you very much stand up move in towards

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the middle here because we are about to

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commence our proceedings for the day can

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I welcome you one and all on yet another

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record breaking Sydney for the 2018 my

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name is Adam Spencer on throat - Bering

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Sea here today let's start with a

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massive round of applause for me because

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I'm pretty awesome just to warm you up

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yes there you go we've got a few

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speeches before we will walk through

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this beautiful city of ours but first of

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all to welcome us all to country please

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welcome to the stage the wonderful uncle

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Alan Madden thank you once again my name

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is our moment catechol elder for my

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first song

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[Music]

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how he can run the be short time today's

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short this week and to the point

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it's always an honor and pleasure to

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lock one nor one and all the country

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where we are today is gadigal first of

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all I'd like to acknowledge our

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Aboriginal elders or elders past and

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present and pay our respects to all our

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Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander

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brothers and sisters from whatever

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Aboriginal island nation you may have

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come from welcome to get eagle at all

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them non-indigenous brothers and sisters

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either day are very warm and sincere

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welcome to you at the gadigal no matter

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where you've come from so I went and

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with this story if any of you bid

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Cinderella

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it is a heart-wrenching story but

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there's lots we can learn about it and I

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think in some ways science is the new

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Cinderella did you know Cinderella was

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called Cinderella because she slept in

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the ashes in the cinders and she was

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living in the coal powered fireplace do

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you worry that our country Australia is

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covered in ashes and that we should be

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cleaning it out and closing down

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vision : fire stations and over Adri

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background in my search I learned that

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there's a great celestial aim you called

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you command in our entry language that

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indicates when a new eggs are available

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and ready to go collect there are also

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stars that show seasonal change as well

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as that and one of the most amazing

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things that I found was starved songs or

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was sold I'm sorry

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pods in the sky that show you the way on

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the ground that are now used in the New

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South Wales highway system now people

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often think that Aboriginal astronomy is

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just a bunch of star stories almost like

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astrology but that is a very common

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misconception thinly veiled within these

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stories are many lessons about

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Aboriginal law how to find food and

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astronomical concepts there is a deep a

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struggle for knowledge of the world

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around us

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based on evidence this involves

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observations pattern recognition logic

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prediction and skepticism

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however indigenous science is holistic

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and often seeks localized explanations

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these could be used to help mitigate the

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fantastic in particular those of you

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who've been to the trouble of bringing

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along some banners there's some great

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banners here I see basic science not BS

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I'll see you I'm a FEMINIST I see up and

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Adam liked it on a couple of us time to

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react here got your little beak of it

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the one that I like the very most hell

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we were just over there can you hold

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that one up alternative facts are

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alternative facts are square root of -1

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yeah yeah you don't mean complex do you

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no no imaginary get it and that the

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Argan died tough crowd today

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I also got to give a big round of

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applause but we will do it in the Auslan

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way for the wonderful Danny who's been

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Auslan interpreting today if you don't

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know the Auslan round of applauses hands

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above your head like that well I mean

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with a few people here with Jessica how

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are you

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I'm extremely well thank you you know

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what'd you think was the beef what was

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the big moment for Masterson's

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this wee year the big moment ah the

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point about not having a science

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Minister which means that we're pretty

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much directionless in terms of good

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science policy in government I thought

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John Singleton was out science Minister

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I've got the wrong guy okay if we could

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have a science minister who would be the

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best person you think oh that's a big

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one

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Jeffry Robbins I reckon be kind of cool

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he's a cool guy

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gonna come down here and people are

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gonna go bang bang bang science they're

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gonna do some waveforms they're gonna do

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some very serious stuff and they will

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pass us by and I'll be looking confused

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so look out for that people here we see

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the 2018 march for science

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what are they marching for well a whole

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bunch of stuff that you go to you need

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to learn like gallium and by the way I'm

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wearing the elements here what is my

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favorite element the element of surprise

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see love that cuz I didn't do it arts

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and that's a bit okay here we go here we

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go I'm gonna walk in here I'm walking

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along as if I went to Newcastle

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University for longer than the day these

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people spent three years there some of

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them even longer yes it's the maths for

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science because science has just been

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put in the gutter tramped on made like a

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paper airplane and flown into the corner

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of the room and beaten up but this is a

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very important thing look at these

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people

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a lot smarter than me let me tell you

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every single one goose nan goose not to

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[Applause]

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yep it goes like what do you want proof

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of the Heisenberg principle because it's

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difficult not a great chat but it works

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for me and here comes the that's the

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Heisenberg principle congratulations

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yes system skeptic see who we got here

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it's Ian price and Nick Andrew look now

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both you are marching for science

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I've been marching for the the

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Heisenberg uncertainty principle and we

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doesn't worked out for me

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I'm pretty sure you've been because no

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one knows where I am yes actually what's

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your favorite moment of science because

276
00:13:09,370 --> 00:13:07,220
you a physics guy what's your theme okay

277
00:13:12,490 --> 00:13:09,380
well I like general relativity that's

278
00:13:15,010 --> 00:13:12,500
what I lecture in at the moment colleges

279
00:13:16,870 --> 00:13:15,020
so the warping of space-time is my

280
00:13:18,430 --> 00:13:16,880
favorite I use a banana to illustrate

281
00:13:21,310 --> 00:13:18,440
the effect of black holes creating

282
00:13:23,020 --> 00:13:21,320
gravitation Newtonian is fine because as

283
00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:23,030
we look around the Newtonian stuff just

284
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:24,530
fine you and your bloody Einstein stuff

285
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:28,970
at so eighteen hundreds in 1600 that's

286
00:13:33,130 --> 00:13:31,040
true and what's your motive hi Angela

287
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:33,140
well I haven't mastered general

288
00:13:36,940 --> 00:13:34,610
relativity yet but I think I'm pretty

289
00:13:38,770 --> 00:13:36,950
cool with special theory of relativity I

290
00:13:39,420 --> 00:13:38,780
think I've got that under wraps what's

291
00:13:43,660 --> 00:13:39,430
the difference

292
00:13:46,030 --> 00:13:43,670
special theory is much more special okay

293
00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:46,040
so either you had a bit of a chat with a

294
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:48,910
flat earther conspiracy person at all

295
00:13:55,090 --> 00:13:52,010
one of my Twitter friends Andrews cake

296
00:13:58,510 --> 00:13:55,100
is currently engaged in fighting the

297
00:14:00,880 --> 00:13:58,520
Flat Earth and he I'm not sure if he's

298
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:00,890
convinced anybody about the earth being

299
00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:04,130
actually an oblate spheroid union but

300
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:06,050
it's just a sad reflection on society

301
00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:06,970
and

302
00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:09,910
today that there is a bunch of people

303
00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:11,110
out there who actually believe this

304
00:14:15,540 --> 00:14:13,510
nonsense and what your favorite science

305
00:14:17,010 --> 00:14:15,550
busting you like to do science busting

306
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:17,020
yeah what do you like to you hey that's

307
00:14:20,610 --> 00:14:18,910
wrong oh god I people who say you can't

308
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:20,620
prove there isn't a god will I say well

309
00:14:24,930 --> 00:14:23,290
I do in my lectures pretty well look

310
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:24,940
it's currently proven negative so you're

311
00:14:29,610 --> 00:14:27,370
out there doing and indeed and yeah

312
00:14:31,050 --> 00:14:29,620
yes the real book of physics but don't

313
00:14:32,540 --> 00:14:31,060
you have to cover everything if you're

314
00:14:35,010 --> 00:14:32,550
gonna like prove a negative

315
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:35,020
science has mega science has covered

316
00:14:38,970 --> 00:14:37,450
everything pretty well in the here and

317
00:14:42,540 --> 00:14:38,980
now in this everything since the Big

318
00:14:43,950 --> 00:14:42,550
Bang has been explained pretty well by

319
00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:43,960
science and there are no gaps through

320
00:14:48,510 --> 00:14:46,270
which a God could intervene any God on

321
00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:48,520
this here and now and on planet Earth so

322
00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:50,710
let that can be backed up in an hour or

323
00:14:53,970 --> 00:14:52,720
so of are you saying the love of Jesus

324
00:14:58,350 --> 00:14:53,980
Christ in your heart that you think goes

325
00:15:00,780 --> 00:14:58,360
before it's just a weed feeling well

326
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:00,790
there are so many different gods so and

327
00:15:04,290 --> 00:15:02,170
they will hate each other so how can

328
00:15:05,550 --> 00:15:04,300
they all be right so as much safer to be

329
00:15:06,540 --> 00:15:05,560
a secularist that's why I'm in the

330
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:06,550
secular party

331
00:15:11,610 --> 00:15:09,850
what's the female goddess that does the

332
00:15:14,460 --> 00:15:11,620
battlefield stuff free it Freya Freya

333
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:14,470
Freya that's Mike yeah Freya she's cool

334
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:17,290
yeah France the Germanic yeah the speed

335
00:15:22,350 --> 00:15:18,370
of light after the Big Bang

336
00:15:23,970 --> 00:15:22,360
no it's not going but did you take the

337
00:15:25,410 --> 00:15:23,980
measurement you'll get the results in

338
00:15:27,210 --> 00:15:25,420
the speed

339
00:15:29,550 --> 00:15:27,220
theoretically the far parts of the

340
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:29,560
universe are going faster than the speed

341
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:31,570
of light but if you take a measurement

342
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:33,730
they'll be the smallest so I'm wondering

343
00:15:38,430 --> 00:15:35,410
long with Ian he's telling me some

344
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:38,440
physics stuff so here's the thing when

345
00:15:41,699 --> 00:15:39,610
you're walking along with someone who

346
00:15:43,829 --> 00:15:41,709
knows quantum physics what you do is you

347
00:15:46,050 --> 00:15:43,839
just nod quietly and pretend you

348
00:15:48,810 --> 00:15:46,060
understand what's being said and you say

349
00:15:52,410 --> 00:15:48,820
stuff like oh Planck time and like oh

350
00:15:53,940 --> 00:15:52,420
look at that isn't that a nice car Wow I

351
00:15:57,300 --> 00:15:53,950
wouldn't have thought he's doing that

352
00:16:00,120 --> 00:15:57,310
and then you go look at well here we are

353
00:16:02,639 --> 00:16:00,130
the people have gathered in the park

354
00:16:03,650 --> 00:16:02,649
it's all gone just a bit sciency there's

355
00:16:07,650 --> 00:16:03,660
a whole bunch of people hanging around

356
00:16:09,470 --> 00:16:07,660
talking saying stuff and over here

357
00:16:11,730 --> 00:16:09,480
there's a few of the rigorous skeptics

358
00:16:13,019 --> 00:16:11,740
hello may not hear like what do you

359
00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:13,029
think of this year's at march for

360
00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:15,880
science all right you know there's

361
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:17,680
people here it's modest there we go it's

362
00:16:20,690 --> 00:16:18,250
modest

363
00:16:22,710 --> 00:16:20,700
mmm ok so what was your favorite moment

364
00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:22,720
well the speeches were pretty good at

365
00:16:25,889 --> 00:16:24,310
the beginning we had heard some from

366
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:25,899
some excellent speakers I think some

367
00:16:28,860 --> 00:16:26,890
people are very very passionate about

368
00:16:31,380 --> 00:16:28,870
science it was good hearing from Kristin

369
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:31,390
banks again pharmacology gets missed out

370
00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:33,970
not one mention of MDMA not a mention of

371
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:35,920
that at all no mission objective fit

372
00:16:40,590 --> 00:16:37,930
Amin nothing but it's still objectively

373
00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:40,600
early on a Saturday so people are still

374
00:16:46,170 --> 00:16:43,510
recovering now when you look around you

375
00:16:47,340 --> 00:16:46,180
actually know scientists so what the

376
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:47,350
heart of science do you think these

377
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:50,890
people will be working on are they know

378
00:16:54,449 --> 00:16:52,690
anything and everything I reckon we've

379
00:16:56,189 --> 00:16:54,459
definitely got physicists we've got

380
00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:56,199
astrophysicists we've got climate

381
00:16:59,670 --> 00:16:57,850
scientists you definitely got some

382
00:17:01,050 --> 00:16:59,680
biologists I think we've got a pretty

383
00:17:04,700 --> 00:17:01,060
decent spectrum there's even

384
00:17:06,890 --> 00:17:04,710
mathematicians but is it as I am

385
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:06,900
now behind me is someone who's a lot

386
00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:08,250
smarter than me he's named out of

387
00:17:11,990 --> 00:17:10,110
Spencer I was spoken to before I am hi

388
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:12,000
yeah that's me that's you how are you

389
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:13,850
buddy oh pretty good be a periodic

390
00:17:19,370 --> 00:17:17,330
what's your favorite element gallium

391
00:17:20,750 --> 00:17:19,380
ammonium one of the ones only lasts

392
00:17:23,420 --> 00:17:20,760
about three seconds

393
00:17:25,130 --> 00:17:23,430
carbon goes pretty good carpet he's a

394
00:17:27,230 --> 00:17:25,140
carbon guy why is that well because

395
00:17:28,850 --> 00:17:27,240
obviously smell it in the barbecue have

396
00:17:30,470 --> 00:17:28,860
ins got a bit of a bad rap at the moment

397
00:17:32,180 --> 00:17:30,480
with its involvement in co2 carbon is

398
00:17:33,950 --> 00:17:32,190
the basis of life it's all there in

399
00:17:36,410 --> 00:17:33,960
these magical little map here you know

400
00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:36,420
that the the incredible amount of human

401
00:17:40,820 --> 00:17:38,880
thought that that table represents that

402
00:17:43,910 --> 00:17:40,830
you can build a basic table that

403
00:17:46,250 --> 00:17:43,920
explains the structure of almost all the

404
00:17:47,690 --> 00:17:46,260
stuff in the universe that's true and

405
00:17:49,370 --> 00:17:47,700
there's nitrous oxide to it which is

406
00:17:50,810 --> 00:17:49,380
fantastic Zakia can't complain about the

407
00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:50,820
old nitrous oxide my friend here and

408
00:17:53,270 --> 00:17:51,840
what did you feel when you were actually

409
00:17:54,980 --> 00:17:53,280
chatting to the people at the mass for

410
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:54,990
science at about the crowd and they're

411
00:17:57,710 --> 00:17:56,130
looking at you why how are you feeling

412
00:17:59,930 --> 00:17:57,720
there was it like while what was going

413
00:18:02,030 --> 00:17:59,940
on it's just right to be in a group who

414
00:18:04,310 --> 00:18:02,040
are united by a common belief in the

415
00:18:06,590 --> 00:18:04,320
power of the human mind to think

416
00:18:07,970 --> 00:18:06,600
rationally approach our problems to get

417
00:18:09,410 --> 00:18:07,980
a greater understanding of the universe

418
00:18:11,450 --> 00:18:09,420
and what we should do what's your

419
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:11,460
favorite discipline in science what is

420
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:13,410
it come a the Mattocks the more pure the

421
00:18:17,450 --> 00:18:15,690
mathematics the less application to the

422
00:18:19,220 --> 00:18:17,460
real world the better as far as I'm

423
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:19,230
concerned that means he likes physics

424
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:20,370
and that's when that's when I

425
00:18:25,010 --> 00:18:22,410
disconnected with science because I got

426
00:18:26,060 --> 00:18:25,020
to like equations and physics and it

427
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:26,070
scared me I'll tell you something

428
00:18:31,130 --> 00:18:28,410
incredible about physics okay 1932 a guy

429
00:18:33,230 --> 00:18:31,140
called chadwick discovers the neutron so

430
00:18:35,090 --> 00:18:33,240
it's in 1932 that we get that model of

431
00:18:36,530 --> 00:18:35,100
the atom that we all saw remember the

432
00:18:38,930 --> 00:18:36,540
protons and the neutrons and then on the

433
00:18:41,180 --> 00:18:38,940
electrons if we like that in 1932 so

434
00:18:43,130 --> 00:18:41,190
from the beginning of humans whatever

435
00:18:44,780 --> 00:18:43,140
you want to call human thinking whatever

436
00:18:46,250 --> 00:18:44,790
you want to call thinking whether that's

437
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:46,260
two hundred thousand years or two meters

438
00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:48,330
or whatever asking the most fundamental

439
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:50,130
question what is stuff it takes us all

440
00:18:55,220 --> 00:18:52,170
of that time up to 1932 to get the three

441
00:18:58,130 --> 00:18:55,230
fundamental particles today one lifetime

442
00:19:01,780 --> 00:18:58,140
onwards from 32 to 2018 we've gone from

443
00:19:04,700 --> 00:19:01,790
three fundamental particles to 61

444
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:04,710
fundamental particles this is the age of

445
00:19:08,570 --> 00:19:07,290
physics this is this explosion in

446
00:19:10,430 --> 00:19:08,580
knowledge of the cutting edge that sort

447
00:19:13,790 --> 00:19:10,440
of stuff that yet we've jumped forward

448
00:19:17,180 --> 00:19:13,800
20 times as far as we had in all human

449
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:17,190
history in the last lifetime I know got

450
00:19:20,239 --> 00:19:18,450
a lot of people to meet and shake

451
00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:20,249
for science net but how do you go with

452
00:19:24,499 --> 00:19:22,559
quantum physics cuz you have a big brain

453
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:24,509
for maths and that is just like out of

454
00:19:28,190 --> 00:19:26,129
the park how do you go with that the

455
00:19:29,749 --> 00:19:28,200
idea that we know since no and that's

456
00:19:31,789 --> 00:19:29,759
the beautiful thing about it it makes no

457
00:19:34,729 --> 00:19:31,799
sense to our limited brains but we know

458
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:34,739
at least some of it must be right so the

459
00:19:37,879 --> 00:19:36,690
challenge then becomes for us to throw

460
00:19:39,169 --> 00:19:37,889
our brains at the topic and get better

461
00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:39,179
at it but the fact that our minds can

462
00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:40,710
even perceive the fact that there's a

463
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:42,960
quantum size of things in a quantum

464
00:19:46,430 --> 00:19:44,850
world in which it appears as though

465
00:19:48,049 --> 00:19:46,440
particles can be in two places at one

466
00:19:50,239 --> 00:19:48,059
time or things can talk to each other

467
00:19:51,470 --> 00:19:50,249
not really quickly but instantly and we

468
00:19:53,749 --> 00:19:51,480
don't know how the information transfers

469
00:19:55,460 --> 00:19:53,759
mind blowing but at the same time how

470
00:19:57,289 --> 00:19:55,470
blessed are we to be the only life form

471
00:19:59,450 --> 00:19:57,299
on this planet that can even conceive of

472
00:20:00,950 --> 00:19:59,460
it and for people out there like from

473
00:20:02,149 --> 00:20:00,960
Birmingham Gardens in Newcastle and

474
00:20:03,710 --> 00:20:02,159
going what's this bloody science thing

475
00:20:05,239 --> 00:20:03,720
what's the best way in one sentence you

476
00:20:08,450 --> 00:20:05,249
can explain why science is important to

477
00:20:10,249 --> 00:20:08,460
them the essence of being human is to

478
00:20:13,249 --> 00:20:10,259
look at the universe and understand what

479
00:20:15,379 --> 00:20:13,259
or wonder what's going on of all the

480
00:20:18,259 --> 00:20:15,389
different tools we have in the toolkit

481
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:18,269
science is profoundly the best way to

482
00:20:20,779 --> 00:20:20,369
understand the questions we all want the

483
00:20:22,340 --> 00:20:20,789
answers to

484
00:20:23,629 --> 00:20:22,350
sure I've embarrassed that I don't know

485
00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:23,639
much about it because I'm having got a

486
00:20:28,669 --> 00:20:25,710
great brain you'd want one you do have

487
00:20:30,379 --> 00:20:28,679
an amazing brain secondly not math but

488
00:20:32,779 --> 00:20:30,389
man I tell you I'm never too late to

489
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:32,789
start my friend remember that thank you

490
00:20:37,999 --> 00:20:35,850
Adam well that's it for the match for

491
00:20:39,919 --> 00:20:38,009
science zombie up zombie down zombie out

492
00:20:42,229 --> 00:20:39,929
of town I'm just hiding up the rude bit

493
00:20:44,239 --> 00:20:42,239
which is that science that basically oh

494
00:20:46,159 --> 00:20:44,249
look that's enough there it's a bit like

495
00:20:48,139 --> 00:20:46,169
can't stop the music but if the Village

496
00:20:50,539 --> 00:20:48,149
People were a fountain that would be it

497
00:20:52,129 --> 00:20:50,549
if we were at a master science this is

498
00:20:53,869 --> 00:20:52,139
it I'm just going to go and learn some

499
00:21:04,060 --> 00:20:53,879
stuff and hopefully I can pretend I was

500
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:16,650
[Music]

501
00:21:21,730 --> 00:21:19,450
this is Ben Radford and Celestia Ward

502
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:21,740
and Pasqual Romero from the podcast

503
00:21:27,070 --> 00:21:24,410
squaring the strange we talk monsters

504
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:27,080
mysteries fallacies and the latest in

505
00:21:31,299 --> 00:21:29,570
whoo we also do deep dives into topics

506
00:21:33,159 --> 00:21:31,309
that might not appear to be a skeptical

507
00:21:35,140 --> 00:21:33,169
subject on the surface yep

508
00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:35,150
topics like fairy tales psychology

509
00:21:41,289 --> 00:21:37,760
treasure hunting trolls and even heavy

510
00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:41,299
metal we celebrated our one-year on the

511
00:21:45,460 --> 00:21:44,000
air with over 55,000 downloads from

512
00:21:47,860 --> 00:21:45,470
listeners all over the world to

513
00:21:50,289 --> 00:21:47,870
celebrate been gave us flying metal pig

514
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:50,299
sculptures not as cool as origami ones

515
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:52,010
but still pretty neat I named mine

516
00:21:57,070 --> 00:21:55,130
Francis Bacon anyway we've also done a

517
00:21:59,020 --> 00:21:57,080
lot of upgrading over the last year we

518
00:22:01,360 --> 00:21:59,030
record through the latest in studio gear

519
00:22:03,490 --> 00:22:01,370
including a brand-new rackmount

520
00:22:05,230 --> 00:22:03,500
compressor gate with auto dynamic attack

521
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:05,240
and release controls true rms power

522
00:22:10,419 --> 00:22:08,450
summing XLR and TRS inputs and outputs

523
00:22:11,980 --> 00:22:10,429
top of the line gate timing algorithm

524
00:22:13,659 --> 00:22:11,990
ask well what does any of that even mean

525
00:22:15,580 --> 00:22:13,669
I don't know but the lights are pretty

526
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:15,590
they are they're blinking and everything

527
00:22:19,390 --> 00:22:17,330
it's awesome it's like lives in ghost

528
00:22:21,460 --> 00:22:19,400
hunting gear and of course Lester is now

529
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:21,470
a co-host on top of doing editing

530
00:22:25,180 --> 00:22:23,450
producing and sending out skeptic rates

531
00:22:26,860 --> 00:22:25,190
I'm also a cat herder

532
00:22:28,330 --> 00:22:26,870
thank you Richard for being so

533
00:22:29,860 --> 00:22:28,340
supportive of the show and helping us

534
00:22:32,169 --> 00:22:29,870
grow beyond anything we could have done

535
00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:32,179
ourselves you and the skeptic zone are

536
00:22:36,039 --> 00:22:34,070
an inspiration and we wouldn't have made

537
00:22:40,890 --> 00:22:36,049
it this far without you thank you thanks

538
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:51,810
[Music]

539
00:22:55,870 --> 00:22:54,290
here's a follow-up to the story we

540
00:22:58,240 --> 00:22:55,880
brought you last week about the

541
00:23:00,580 --> 00:22:58,250
naturopath Maryland mod nur being

542
00:23:02,980 --> 00:23:00,590
sentenced to 14 months imprisonment with

543
00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:02,990
a seven-month non-role period

544
00:23:09,010 --> 00:23:06,370
I thought I would read you the judgment

545
00:23:11,230 --> 00:23:09,020
handed down and this comes to us from

546
00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:11,240
the district court of New South Wales

547
00:23:19,350 --> 00:23:15,110
and this was handed down by judge Berman

548
00:23:22,450 --> 00:23:19,360
[Music]

549
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:22,460
sentence one many people in the

550
00:23:27,190 --> 00:23:24,730
community shun conventional medicine

551
00:23:29,830 --> 00:23:27,200
others regard alternative medical

552
00:23:32,740 --> 00:23:29,840
treatment as being complementary to

553
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:32,750
conventional medicine the criminal law

554
00:23:37,630 --> 00:23:35,210
does not often get involved in the

555
00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:37,640
choice of a person to give or accept

556
00:23:41,860 --> 00:23:40,310
advice based on alternatives to

557
00:23:44,350 --> 00:23:41,870
conventional medicine

558
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:44,360
thus people are perfectly entitled to

559
00:23:48,910 --> 00:23:46,970
portray themselves as being able to cure

560
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:48,920
illnesses through the placement of

561
00:23:54,490 --> 00:23:51,770
crystals on the body the use of highly

562
00:23:58,150 --> 00:23:54,500
diluted solutions and the eating of

563
00:24:00,880 --> 00:23:58,160
activated Hartman's - but the criminal

564
00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:00,890
law does get involved when harm results

565
00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:03,710
from dangerous advice and where gross

566
00:24:09,190 --> 00:24:06,230
recklessness in the giving of such

567
00:24:12,460 --> 00:24:09,200
advice leads to a significant risk of

568
00:24:14,890 --> 00:24:12,470
death those who purport to be qualified

569
00:24:17,140 --> 00:24:14,900
to give medical advice where the doctors

570
00:24:20,830 --> 00:24:17,150
are not have an obligation to provide

571
00:24:24,070 --> 00:24:20,840
advice which is based on proved results

572
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:24,080
not merely fake science and faith and

573
00:24:29,470 --> 00:24:27,410
those who give advice with the potential

574
00:24:32,980 --> 00:24:29,480
to harm others have an obligation to

575
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:32,990
ensure that continued acceptance of that

576
00:24:38,770 --> 00:24:35,930
advice does not lead as in this case to

577
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:38,780
a real possibility that the well-meaning

578
00:24:44,830 --> 00:24:41,570
but seriously misguided advice causes

579
00:24:47,470 --> 00:24:44,840
the risk of death of an innocent child 3

580
00:24:50,740 --> 00:24:47,480
in this case the advice given by the

581
00:24:53,410 --> 00:24:50,750
offender Marilyn Bodnar to the mother of

582
00:24:53,950 --> 00:24:53,420
a child with eczema almost led to that

583
00:24:56,230 --> 00:24:53,960
child's

584
00:24:59,139 --> 00:24:56,240
death the advice should probably never

585
00:25:01,299 --> 00:24:59,149
been given in the first place but the

586
00:25:03,220 --> 00:25:01,309
fact that ms Bodnar continued to give

587
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:03,230
that advice in the face of evidence of

588
00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:06,770
the harm that was being caused and in

589
00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:09,110
the absence of ms Bodnar's monitoring of

590
00:25:14,260 --> 00:25:11,360
the condition of the child meant that it

591
00:25:18,190 --> 00:25:14,270
was seriously criminal behavior to

592
00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:18,200
continue giving such flawed advice for

593
00:25:23,169 --> 00:25:21,440
the protection of children from harm is

594
00:25:25,779 --> 00:25:23,179
one of the most important aspects of the

595
00:25:27,940 --> 00:25:25,789
criminal law and where offenses are

596
00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:27,950
committed against children principles of

597
00:25:33,159 --> 00:25:30,529
general deterrence usually of

598
00:25:34,810 --> 00:25:33,169
considerable importance that principle

599
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:34,820
is one to which full weight should be

600
00:25:40,299 --> 00:25:38,210
given in this sentencing exercise and it

601
00:25:43,299 --> 00:25:40,309
explains the sentence I will ultimately

602
00:25:45,399 --> 00:25:43,309
impose on the offender five before

603
00:25:47,620 --> 00:25:45,409
proceeding I will remind those present

604
00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:47,630
that there is to be no publication of

605
00:25:53,260 --> 00:25:50,240
any evidence which will identify or tend

606
00:25:55,090 --> 00:25:53,270
to identify the name of the child for

607
00:25:58,990 --> 00:25:55,100
the purposes of this judgment I will

608
00:26:02,139 --> 00:25:59,000
give him the pseudonym Tony six he was

609
00:26:03,789 --> 00:26:02,149
born in early October 2014 when he was

610
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:03,799
four months old he was found to be

611
00:26:08,409 --> 00:26:05,570
developing at a normal pace but

612
00:26:10,930 --> 00:26:08,419
diagnosed with eczema a specialist saw

613
00:26:13,180 --> 00:26:10,940
him on the 23rd of February 2015 the

614
00:26:16,659 --> 00:26:13,190
specialist explained that the eczema

615
00:26:18,340 --> 00:26:16,669
could not be cured only treated the

616
00:26:21,549 --> 00:26:18,350
specialist provided appropriate advice

617
00:26:24,870 --> 00:26:21,559
to Tony's mother and booked him in for a

618
00:26:27,159 --> 00:26:24,880
skin prick test to test for allergens an

619
00:26:28,990 --> 00:26:27,169
appointment was made to discuss the

620
00:26:30,789 --> 00:26:29,000
results with this test but that

621
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:30,799
appointment was cancelled by Tony's

622
00:26:35,799 --> 00:26:33,770
mother seven it was around this time

623
00:26:39,370 --> 00:26:35,809
that Tony's mother was introduced to ms

624
00:26:42,820 --> 00:26:39,380
Bodnar the offender ms Bodnar must have

625
00:26:45,220 --> 00:26:42,830
seemed as something of a godsend to her

626
00:26:48,850 --> 00:26:45,230
because miss bonnet told her that she

627
00:26:51,730 --> 00:26:48,860
could cure Tony's eczema something which

628
00:26:53,980 --> 00:26:51,740
the specialist said could not be done no

629
00:26:56,620 --> 00:26:53,990
evidence in these proceedings was

630
00:26:59,169 --> 00:26:56,630
tendered in any attempt to prove the

631
00:27:01,029 --> 00:26:59,179
accuracy of the offender's claim to have

632
00:27:05,710 --> 00:27:01,039
the ability to do what the specialist

633
00:27:08,260 --> 00:27:05,720
could not namely cure Tony's eczema 8 ms

634
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:08,270
modernist explanation for Tony's

635
00:27:13,890 --> 00:27:10,250
was that it could have been caused by

636
00:27:17,020 --> 00:27:13,900
the mother's diet and toxins in her body

637
00:27:19,390 --> 00:27:17,030
accordingly miss Buckner advised and the

638
00:27:24,070 --> 00:27:19,400
mother accepted that she should go on a

639
00:27:26,950 --> 00:27:24,080
quote raw only in quote diet 9 from

640
00:27:29,050 --> 00:27:26,960
around the 10th of April 2015 the mother

641
00:27:31,510 --> 00:27:29,060
began to follow MS Bodnar's advice

642
00:27:34,210 --> 00:27:31,520
ceased conventional medical treatment

643
00:27:38,380 --> 00:27:34,220
for her son's eczema and took up a raw

644
00:27:40,450 --> 00:27:38,390
food diet 10 this treatment contributed

645
00:27:43,300 --> 00:27:40,460
to the serious harm later suffered by

646
00:27:45,220 --> 00:27:43,310
Tony not surprisingly the mother lost

647
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:45,230
weight and given that she was

648
00:27:51,450 --> 00:27:48,170
breastfeeding Tony exclusively so did he

649
00:27:55,420 --> 00:27:51,460
the mother lost 11 kilos and

650
00:27:58,960 --> 00:27:55,430
incidentally that's about 24 pounds and

651
00:28:02,560 --> 00:27:58,970
Tony who was only around 6 months of age

652
00:28:04,210 --> 00:28:02,570
at the time lost 1.4 kilos miss Bodnar

653
00:28:06,430 --> 00:28:04,220
was aware of this weight loss but

654
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:06,440
assured the mother that this was normal

655
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:09,290
and that Tony was fat and needed to lose

656
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:13,250
weight 11 in early to mid-may things got

657
00:28:15,730 --> 00:28:13,760
worse

658
00:28:18,220 --> 00:28:15,740
Tony began having higher temperatures

659
00:28:22,540 --> 00:28:18,230
remarkably miss Banda advised the mother

660
00:28:25,510 --> 00:28:22,550
to fast and to go on a water only diet I

661
00:28:29,260 --> 00:28:25,520
repeat Tony was being exclusively

662
00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:29,270
breastfed at the time 12 the situation

663
00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:31,370
reached a critical stage on or around

664
00:28:37,090 --> 00:28:34,310
the 21st of May 2015 when Tony was

665
00:28:40,060 --> 00:28:37,100
unsettled his mother believed he needed

666
00:28:42,820 --> 00:28:40,070
more food miss Bodnar suggested that she

667
00:28:45,370 --> 00:28:42,830
could give him some goat's milk

668
00:28:48,580 --> 00:28:45,380
but when the mother tried this Tony

669
00:28:50,380 --> 00:28:48,590
vomited it up miss Banda suggested that

670
00:28:53,590 --> 00:28:50,390
the mother tried to dilute the goat's

671
00:28:57,910 --> 00:28:53,600
milk with water and try again but Tony

672
00:29:00,070 --> 00:28:57,920
vomited that also 13 eventually and

673
00:29:02,710 --> 00:29:00,080
thankfully the mother took Tony to her

674
00:29:04,090 --> 00:29:02,720
general practitioner she told the GP

675
00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:04,100
that she had been advised by a

676
00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:06,320
naturopath to have an exclusion diet for

677
00:29:10,450 --> 00:29:08,510
herself and to avoid introducing any

678
00:29:11,950 --> 00:29:10,460
solids to the baby in an attempt to

679
00:29:14,110 --> 00:29:11,960
control the eczema

680
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:14,120
the doctor found that Tony was in a

681
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:16,970
shrunken state with loss of body fat and

682
00:29:21,410 --> 00:29:20,960
muscles he appeared to be dehydrated the

683
00:29:23,750 --> 00:29:21,420
doctor

684
00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:23,760
referred Tony to the Children's Hospital

685
00:29:28,460 --> 00:29:26,310
where he was found to be in a critical

686
00:29:31,250 --> 00:29:28,470
condition the doctors forming the

687
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:31,260
opinion that had he not presented to the

688
00:29:37,370 --> 00:29:33,570
hospital he could have died within a

689
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:37,380
number of days 14 he had lost a lot of

690
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:39,810
weight at six months of age he weighed

691
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:42,330
eight kilograms but on admission at

692
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:45,450
seven and a half months weighed only six

693
00:29:50,150 --> 00:29:47,970
point four kilograms there was evidence

694
00:29:52,580 --> 00:29:50,160
of a developmental delay which

695
00:29:55,730 --> 00:29:52,590
correlated with the mother taking miss

696
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:55,740
Bolton his advice his development at

697
00:30:00,230 --> 00:29:57,810
eight months was assessed as being

698
00:30:02,810 --> 00:30:00,240
equivalent to that of a three-month-old

699
00:30:05,180 --> 00:30:02,820
he remained in hospital for more than a

700
00:30:07,220 --> 00:30:05,190
month he still needs to be assessed by

701
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:07,230
medical experts over the next few years

702
00:30:12,890 --> 00:30:10,530
in order to ascertain whether or not he

703
00:30:15,170 --> 00:30:12,900
will suffer any long-term developmental

704
00:30:19,310 --> 00:30:15,180
delays as a result of what has happened

705
00:30:21,740 --> 00:30:19,320
to him 15 as a result of what I have

706
00:30:25,490 --> 00:30:21,750
described the offender has pleaded

707
00:30:28,190 --> 00:30:25,500
guilty to having aided abetted counseled

708
00:30:31,430 --> 00:30:28,200
or procured the commission of an offense

709
00:30:33,470 --> 00:30:31,440
by the child's mother that being an

710
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:33,480
offense of being a person having

711
00:30:39,020 --> 00:30:36,090
parental responsibilities recklessly and

712
00:30:41,150 --> 00:30:39,030
without reasonable excuse failing to

713
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:41,160
provide Tony with the necessities of

714
00:30:47,180 --> 00:30:44,310
life the result of that failure causing

715
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:47,190
a danger of death to Tony this is an

716
00:30:52,820 --> 00:30:49,170
offense which carries a maximum penalty

717
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:52,830
of five years imprisonment sixteen this

718
00:30:57,620 --> 00:30:55,530
is an objectively serious example of

719
00:31:00,020 --> 00:30:57,630
crimes of this type particularly

720
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:00,030
important in making that assessment are

721
00:31:05,330 --> 00:31:02,730
the length of time over which the

722
00:31:09,290 --> 00:31:05,340
offense occurred the 22nd of February

723
00:31:11,930 --> 00:31:09,300
2015 - the 22nd of May 2015 the gross

724
00:31:14,450 --> 00:31:11,940
recklessness of the offender in firstly

725
00:31:16,370 --> 00:31:14,460
providing such advice to the mother but

726
00:31:18,470 --> 00:31:16,380
perhaps more importantly failing to

727
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:18,480
observe or perhaps ignoring the effect

728
00:31:24,290 --> 00:31:22,320
of that advice upon Tony and of course

729
00:31:26,450 --> 00:31:24,300
the age of Tony is a matter of some

730
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:26,460
importance as well it's not as though

731
00:31:31,250 --> 00:31:29,970
Tony was able to feed himself 17 the

732
00:31:34,340 --> 00:31:31,260
offender pleaded guilty of this charge

733
00:31:35,420 --> 00:31:34,350
not at the earliest opportunity but not

734
00:31:38,570 --> 00:31:35,430
at the latest opportune

735
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:38,580
either the procedural history is

736
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:40,770
somewhat complicated but it has agreed

737
00:31:45,530 --> 00:31:42,930
between the parties that the sentence I

738
00:31:48,380 --> 00:31:45,540
impose upon the offender should be about

739
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:48,390
15% less then it would otherwise have

740
00:31:54,860 --> 00:31:51,810
been 18 the offender is a mature woman

741
00:31:56,690 --> 00:31:54,870
of 62 years of age she has a close

742
00:31:58,970 --> 00:31:56,700
healthy relationship with her two

743
00:32:00,410 --> 00:31:58,980
children and her husband after finishing

744
00:32:02,630 --> 00:32:00,420
high school she qualified as a

745
00:32:05,420 --> 00:32:02,640
registered nurse continuing her training

746
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:05,430
so that she qualified in emergency post

747
00:32:12,050 --> 00:32:07,770
procedure procedures and then as a

748
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:12,060
midwife in 1978 nineteen in that year at

749
00:32:17,210 --> 00:32:13,890
age 22 she was diagnosed with breast

750
00:32:19,310 --> 00:32:17,220
cancer this proved benign but the

751
00:32:22,430 --> 00:32:19,320
undoubted crisis in her life that arose

752
00:32:24,620 --> 00:32:22,440
at this time led to her developing an

753
00:32:28,370 --> 00:32:24,630
interest in good diet and alternative

754
00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:28,380
therapies 20 she studied naturopathy

755
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:30,960
before in 1983 establishing her own

756
00:32:35,990 --> 00:32:33,690
business she offered massage services

757
00:32:37,670 --> 00:32:36,000
gave diet advice and rank cooking

758
00:32:39,950 --> 00:32:37,680
classes treating children as well as

759
00:32:42,650 --> 00:32:39,960
adults there is no evidence to suggest

760
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:42,660
anyone else has been harmed by the

761
00:32:47,900 --> 00:32:45,570
treatments she offered now if I could

762
00:32:50,780 --> 00:32:47,910
make a quick comment here as I told you

763
00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:50,790
last week Marilyn Bonner was actually

764
00:32:58,220 --> 00:32:54,240
sent to trial in the 80s over the death

765
00:33:00,680 --> 00:32:58,230
of her a friend or a client however she

766
00:33:02,330 --> 00:33:00,690
was acquitted or found not guilty so

767
00:33:05,690 --> 00:33:02,340
with my limited legal knowledge I

768
00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:05,700
imagine that when this judge says there

769
00:33:10,310 --> 00:33:07,710
is no evidence to suggest anyone else

770
00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:10,320
has been harmed by the treatments she

771
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:13,380
offered he must have taken in

772
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:14,970
consideration that she was found not

773
00:33:20,990 --> 00:33:17,490
guilty so in the eyes of the law she was

774
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:21,000
not guilty of any previous offenses we

775
00:33:25,850 --> 00:33:24,210
read on 21 the offender has provided a

776
00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:25,860
letter of apology to the court and

777
00:33:32,510 --> 00:33:29,760
expressed remorse she says that she

778
00:33:35,780 --> 00:33:32,520
never intended her suggestions to cause

779
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:35,790
any harm to Tony or the mother this is

780
00:33:39,890 --> 00:33:38,010
easily accepted miss Bonner is not

781
00:33:42,770 --> 00:33:39,900
charged with being an accessory to any

782
00:33:46,790 --> 00:33:42,780
offense involving intentional harm to

783
00:33:48,710 --> 00:33:46,800
Tony 22 MS Bonner has no relevant legal

784
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:48,720
convictions the only offenses in her

785
00:33:54,140 --> 00:33:49,290
criminal

786
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:54,150
being driving offenses committed in 2008

787
00:33:59,090 --> 00:33:57,330
and 2013 there is no doubt that she is a

788
00:34:01,430 --> 00:33:59,100
caring and well-meaning individual and

789
00:34:03,410 --> 00:34:01,440
that her intentions to provide advice to

790
00:34:05,540 --> 00:34:03,420
Tony's mother were based on what she

791
00:34:08,720 --> 00:34:05,550
believed to be some connection between

792
00:34:11,540 --> 00:34:08,730
Tony's ex MA and the mother's diet but

793
00:34:13,879 --> 00:34:11,550
once it became clearly apparent that

794
00:34:16,250 --> 00:34:13,889
there was a risk of harm to Tony through

795
00:34:19,370 --> 00:34:16,260
the mother following her advice it was a

796
00:34:21,980 --> 00:34:19,380
seriously criminal thing to do to ignore

797
00:34:25,850 --> 00:34:21,990
the effect of her advice on Tony's

798
00:34:27,620 --> 00:34:25,860
well-being 23 in submissions from mr.

799
00:34:30,379 --> 00:34:27,630
Mitra who appeared for the offender

800
00:34:32,690 --> 00:34:30,389
today the offender sought to gain

801
00:34:34,580 --> 00:34:32,700
comfort from the fact that she never saw

802
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:34,590
Tony in the state revealed by

803
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:37,110
photographs tended to the crown but this

804
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:39,090
is part of the criminality of the

805
00:34:42,980 --> 00:34:41,370
offender in continuing to advise a

806
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:42,990
restricted diet for Tony's mother

807
00:34:49,129 --> 00:34:45,570
without seeing Tony and without seeing

808
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:49,139
just how obviously ill he was 24 I

809
00:34:54,260 --> 00:34:51,530
accept that Miss Bodnar has suffered

810
00:34:56,750 --> 00:34:54,270
significantly since the matters came to

811
00:34:59,390 --> 00:34:56,760
light her business has suffered she has

812
00:35:01,580 --> 00:34:59,400
been subject to ongoing restrictions

813
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:01,590
imposed by the healthcare Complaints

814
00:35:06,350 --> 00:35:03,930
Commission she has been the subject of

815
00:35:08,450 --> 00:35:06,360
abuse on social media she has been

816
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:08,460
extremely stressed over a number of

817
00:35:13,670 --> 00:35:11,130
years such stress resulting in symptoms

818
00:35:16,820 --> 00:35:13,680
of anxiety and depression and being

819
00:35:18,950 --> 00:35:16,830
displaced 25 I should at this stage

820
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:18,960
speak about the sentence imposed upon

821
00:35:24,110 --> 00:35:21,930
Tony's mother the principles of parody

822
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:24,120
clearly applied for that reason I was

823
00:35:28,370 --> 00:35:26,160
provided with materials tended to the

824
00:35:30,980 --> 00:35:28,380
magistrate who sentenced Tony's mother

825
00:35:33,170 --> 00:35:30,990
as well as his honors remarks on the

826
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:33,180
sentence the magistrate imposed a

827
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:35,370
sentence of imprisonment of fourteen

828
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:38,610
months but suspended its execution and

829
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:42,450
as 12 of the crimes sentencing Procedure

830
00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:45,690
Act 26 it is to be noted that the

831
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:47,910
magistrate clearly identified the reason

832
00:35:51,830 --> 00:35:49,290
that a sentence of full time

833
00:35:55,010 --> 00:35:51,840
imprisonment was not imposed he said

834
00:35:57,500 --> 00:35:55,020
quote in my view but for the offer and

835
00:35:59,570 --> 00:35:57,510
willingness on the part of the defendant

836
00:36:01,400 --> 00:35:59,580
to agree to give evidence against the co

837
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:01,410
accused a period of full-time

838
00:36:05,050 --> 00:36:02,490
imprisonment would

839
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:05,060
have been otherwise appropriate in quote

840
00:36:11,390 --> 00:36:08,250
27 this offender who does not get the

841
00:36:14,570 --> 00:36:11,400
benefit of a discount under s 23 of the

842
00:36:16,130 --> 00:36:14,580
crimes sentencing Procedure Act cannot

843
00:36:17,870 --> 00:36:16,140
really complain

844
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:17,880
therefore if a sentence of full-time

845
00:36:22,460 --> 00:36:20,090
imprisonment is imposed upon her

846
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:22,470
especially given that mr. matauri

847
00:36:28,850 --> 00:36:25,290
accepts that the criminality of Tony's

848
00:36:30,740 --> 00:36:28,860
mother and his client is similar now of

849
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:30,750
course the Crown can't rely on the

850
00:36:35,660 --> 00:36:33,330
principles of parody but in my view the

851
00:36:39,260 --> 00:36:35,670
offender would not have a justifiable

852
00:36:40,790 --> 00:36:39,270
sense of grievance where I to ultimately

853
00:36:44,870 --> 00:36:40,800
impose a sentence of full-time

854
00:36:46,790 --> 00:36:44,880
imprisonment upon her 28 I will take

855
00:36:49,250 --> 00:36:46,800
into account that this is a matter that

856
00:36:52,250 --> 00:36:49,260
could have been dealt with in a local

857
00:36:54,950 --> 00:36:52,260
court as it turns out the sentence I

858
00:36:58,600 --> 00:36:54,960
impose upon Miss Bodnar does not exceed

859
00:36:59,840 --> 00:36:58,610
the jurisdictional limit of that court

860
00:37:02,540 --> 00:36:59,850
29

861
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:02,550
I accept that the principles of specific

862
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:05,730
deterrence have little part to play the

863
00:37:09,349 --> 00:37:07,410
evidence would suggest that Miss Bodnar

864
00:37:12,050 --> 00:37:09,359
is unlikely to commit a similar offense

865
00:37:14,780 --> 00:37:12,060
in the future even if she were to be in

866
00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:14,790
a position to do so but as I began those

867
00:37:20,599 --> 00:37:17,040
remarks on sentence general deterrence

868
00:37:22,190 --> 00:37:20,609
is of great significance children such

869
00:37:24,050 --> 00:37:22,200
as the child in this matter are

870
00:37:26,750 --> 00:37:24,060
defenseless and vulnerable particularly

871
00:37:29,380 --> 00:37:26,760
so when they are entirely dependent upon

872
00:37:32,810 --> 00:37:29,390
others for their nutrition and welfare

873
00:37:35,780 --> 00:37:32,820
30 well intentioned but seriously

874
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:35,790
misguided advice is as the facts of this

875
00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:38,130
case demonstrate capable of causing

876
00:37:44,030 --> 00:37:41,310
great harm and even death to vulnerable

877
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:44,040
children those giving such advice need

878
00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:46,530
to have it made clear to them that if

879
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:48,960
they give such advice they need to make

880
00:37:53,420 --> 00:37:51,330
sure that it is not going to do harm and

881
00:37:56,300 --> 00:37:53,430
if they continue to give such advice

882
00:38:00,560 --> 00:37:56,310
they need to continue to ensure that no

883
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:00,570
harm is being caused 31 it is a serious

884
00:38:06,170 --> 00:38:04,050
matter but not necessarily a crime to

885
00:38:09,140 --> 00:38:06,180
tell a breast-feeding mother to restrict

886
00:38:12,020 --> 00:38:09,150
her diet it is even more serious when

887
00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:12,030
such advice continues after being told

888
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:14,310
that both the mother and the child have

889
00:38:18,859 --> 00:38:16,770
lost weight and it is serious in

890
00:38:22,100 --> 00:38:18,869
and highly criminal for such advice to

891
00:38:24,410 --> 00:38:22,110
continue to the state where a child was

892
00:38:26,570 --> 00:38:24,420
at risk of death within a few days in

893
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:26,580
circumstances where the person giving me

894
00:38:32,090 --> 00:38:28,770
advice hadn't even seen the state the

895
00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:32,100
child was in as a result of his or her

896
00:38:38,990 --> 00:38:35,910
advice being followed 32 as part of his

897
00:38:42,020 --> 00:38:39,000
submissions mr. MIT Ray relied on a

898
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:42,030
decision of a judge of this court when

899
00:38:46,670 --> 00:38:44,400
sentencing an offender for a charge of

900
00:38:48,650 --> 00:38:46,680
failure of a person with parental

901
00:38:49,460 --> 00:38:48,660
responsibility to provide appropriate

902
00:38:52,700 --> 00:38:49,470
care

903
00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:52,710
this is an unusual matter and I mean no

904
00:38:58,160 --> 00:38:55,260
criticism of mr. matray at all when I

905
00:39:01,010 --> 00:38:58,170
say that he was relying on a single case

906
00:39:03,470 --> 00:39:01,020
I am sure that it is the only case he

907
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:03,480
could find but it remains the case that

908
00:39:08,180 --> 00:39:05,970
a single decision by another judge of

909
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:08,190
this Court says very little indeed if

910
00:39:14,450 --> 00:39:09,930
anything about the sentence I should

911
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:14,460
impose in the present case 33 I except

912
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:16,610
of course that sentences of imprisonment

913
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:21,210
very much sentences of last resort it is

914
00:39:26,990 --> 00:39:24,570
a serious thing to do to send a 62 year

915
00:39:29,060 --> 00:39:27,000
old woman with no criminal history to

916
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:29,070
jail for the first time but I am

917
00:39:33,230 --> 00:39:31,290
satisfied that no other form of sentence

918
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:33,240
would reflect the object gravity of her

919
00:39:39,050 --> 00:39:36,450
conduct and the need to deter others who

920
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:39,060
may also give well-meaning but misguided

921
00:39:44,930 --> 00:39:42,930
advice of a medical nature which has the

922
00:39:48,740 --> 00:39:44,940
potential to cause great harm and even

923
00:39:51,290 --> 00:39:48,750
death 34 there are special circumstances

924
00:39:53,150 --> 00:39:51,300
in this case relating not only to this

925
00:39:56,210 --> 00:39:53,160
being the offender's first time in

926
00:39:58,790 --> 00:39:56,220
custody but also her age and the fact

927
00:40:02,330 --> 00:39:58,800
that she is displaying symptoms of

928
00:40:05,540 --> 00:40:02,340
anxiety and depression 35 i impose

929
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:05,550
sentence as follows I said a non-parole

930
00:40:10,970 --> 00:40:07,770
period of seven months and a head

931
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:10,980
sentence of 14 months to date from today

932
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:13,650
5th of April 2018 the non-parole period

933
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:18,410
will expire on the 4th of November 2018

934
00:40:28,340 --> 00:40:26,480
now I will link to that judgment in this

935
00:40:30,260 --> 00:40:28,350
week's show notes so you can peruse

936
00:40:33,770 --> 00:40:30,270
those for yourself but I found that

937
00:40:35,990 --> 00:40:33,780
absolutely fascinating to read that out

938
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:36,000
and in fact I was learning a lot as I

939
00:40:42,500 --> 00:40:39,090
was reading it to you and I think it is

940
00:40:45,950 --> 00:40:42,510
a very important judgment to have I

941
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:45,960
think we shall be referring to this in

942
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:49,050
the future and as I said last week it

943
00:40:53,930 --> 00:40:50,970
sends a strong message to natural

944
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:53,940
therapists that they are responsible

945
00:40:57,700 --> 00:40:55,770
legally responsible for the care of

946
00:41:00,830 --> 00:40:57,710
their patients or their clients a

947
00:41:03,590 --> 00:41:00,840
fascinating insight into the workings of

948
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:03,600
our legal system here in Australia and a

949
00:41:09,430 --> 00:41:05,490
very important case for science and

950
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:28,149
[Music]

951
00:41:32,149 --> 00:41:30,739
thank you for listening to the skeptic

952
00:41:34,609 --> 00:41:32,159
zone and thank you to those people who

953
00:41:36,139 --> 00:41:34,619
came along for the march for Sciences

954
00:41:37,999 --> 00:41:36,149
always good to match from the city

955
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:38,009
streets especially with Maynard in tow

956
00:41:42,529 --> 00:41:40,890
and especially marching for science and

957
00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:42,539
thank you Adam Spencer for taking time

958
00:41:47,959 --> 00:41:45,569
out to talk to Maynard coming up on next

959
00:41:50,899 --> 00:41:47,969
week's show dr. Pauley returns with her

960
00:41:53,029 --> 00:41:50,909
random rant and she's going to be

961
00:41:55,489 --> 00:41:53,039
interviewing somebody about climate

962
00:41:57,919 --> 00:41:55,499
change and climate change arguments an

963
00:42:01,039 --> 00:41:57,929
interesting perspective a skeptical

964
00:42:03,499 --> 00:42:01,049
perspective that is to say not a climate

965
00:42:06,319 --> 00:42:03,509
change skeptic but somebody who has

966
00:42:09,709 --> 00:42:06,329
looked at all the arguments and figured

967
00:42:12,019 --> 00:42:09,719
out some good rebuttals also next week

968
00:42:14,749 --> 00:42:12,029
we're going to be bringing you news of a

969
00:42:17,809 --> 00:42:14,759
vaccination clinic coming up which may

970
00:42:19,789 --> 00:42:17,819
interest people in Sydney and soon on

971
00:42:21,459 --> 00:42:19,799
the skeptic zone we're going to be

972
00:42:25,039 --> 00:42:21,469
starting a series of interviews with

973
00:42:26,839 --> 00:42:25,049
speakers who are going to appear at the

974
00:42:29,449 --> 00:42:26,849
upcoming Australian skeptics National

975
00:42:33,379 --> 00:42:29,459
Convention later this year in October I

976
00:42:36,829 --> 00:42:33,389
think and bit-by-bit will be bringing

977
00:42:39,620 --> 00:42:36,839
you those interviews and we look forward

978
00:42:42,349 --> 00:42:39,630
to meeting all these people in person of

979
00:42:45,259 --> 00:42:42,359
course later on in the year for the

980
00:42:47,659 --> 00:42:45,269
skeptics convention more details over

981
00:42:50,959 --> 00:42:47,669
the coming months now as I look outside

982
00:42:52,789 --> 00:42:50,969
the window yeah it's still a bit of

983
00:42:55,339 --> 00:42:52,799
smoke out there it's strange you know

984
00:42:57,549 --> 00:42:55,349
you get these smoky you can smell it in

985
00:43:02,569 --> 00:42:57,559
the air too from fires that are burning

986
00:43:05,209 --> 00:43:02,579
on the outskirts of Sydney mmm I hope

987
00:43:08,449 --> 00:43:05,219
that doesn't get more serious is that

988
00:43:15,019 --> 00:43:08,459
climate change this hot this late in the

989
00:43:17,479 --> 00:43:15,029
year probably on that unsettling note

990
00:43:22,310 --> 00:43:17,489
this is Richard Saunders signing off

991
00:43:27,740 --> 00:43:24,840
you've been listening to the skeptic

992
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:27,750
zone podcast please visit our website at

993
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:34,450
wwlp.com tax and to access the bat

994
00:43:40,590 --> 00:43:37,920
catalog of episodes going back to 2008

995
00:43:43,890 --> 00:43:40,600
you can follow the skeptic zone podcast

996
00:43:46,170 --> 00:43:43,900
on twitter at skeptic zone visit our

997
00:43:49,530 --> 00:43:46,180
facebook page or leave a review on

998
00:43:52,890 --> 00:43:49,540
itunes you can also support the skeptic

999
00:43:55,260 --> 00:43:52,900
zone via patreon or paypal the skeptic

1000
00:43:57,210 --> 00:43:55,270
zone podcast is an independent

1001
00:43:59,370 --> 00:43:57,220
production reviews and opinions

1002
00:44:01,560 --> 00:43:59,380
expressed on the skeptic zone and not

1003
00:44:04,530 --> 00:44:01,570
necessarily those of Australian skeptics